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Bord Pleanala Refuse Youghal’s ‘Dunnes Stores Development.’
47 comments | 
An Bord Pleanala has upheld an appeal against planning permission for a major retail development at the former Murray Kitchen’s site in Mill Road, Youghal. The so-called ‘Dunne’s Stores’ proposal had received planning permission from Youghal Town Council, who rezoned the four-acre site, paving the way for a massive 9,500 sq metre retail, sports & leisure and medical/health centre. The site’s capacity measures more than the combined existing retail space, Tescos included, in the town. By Christy Parker Photo: Michael Hussey (YoughalOnline.com)
Bord Pleanala Refuse Youghal's 'Dunnes Stores Development.'
Killarney-based Galvin Developments Ltd., who bought the site, had intimated that Dunne’s Stores would provide anchor tenancy on 6,000 sq metres with the remaining space occupied by up to twelve ancillary units. The application also provided for 250 parking spaces.
Objectors to the proposal were Finbarr & Anthony Russell, RGDATA, Ken Brookes and Diarmuid Keogh. The Bord upheld the objections on the grounds that, contrary to the 2009-15 Town Development Plan, it would ‘adversely affect the vitality and viability of the old town centre, its heritage character and its envisaged role as the primary commercial, retail, civic and symbolic centre of the town.’ Read more inside
The Bord further decided that, “adequate provision for parking, loading and turning spaces had not been provided and that serious traffic congestion on the main road might arise. It was ruled that the proposal was ‘unduly development obtrusive and would adversely affect the character and views of the nearby protected structure of North Abbey Cemetery, with a similar negative impact on nearby bungalows.
Jerry Galvin, Director with Galvin Developments says the company “is very disappointed, having worked on the project for a long time.
Its now back to the drawing board,” he added.
Please click on the following An Bord Pleanala – Inspectors Reports:
For detailed information, see Cork County Council Planning files @ www.corkcoco.ie
Youghal Town Council Planning Register Number: P58012/08
An Bord Pleanala Reference Number: PL87.231058
47 comments |
I have mixed feelings about the rejection. It is regrettable that the development will not be going ahead and therefore it can be construed as an employment blow to the town, both for the development of the site itself and for employment prospects in the finished development.
But, and it is a big but; it is worth noting that it was never certain that Dunnes Stores would be a tenant.
My primary concern about the development when I first heard about it a few years back was the location. Within 200 metres of the site are Lidl and Tesco. Since both Lidl and Tesco were established in town there has been a shift in the focus of the town to the North with a very noticable and detrimental effect on the traditional town centre. I can’t help but feel that if Dunnes Stores were to take up tenancy in the proposed development then it would result in further decline in businesses already operating in the town centre.
Additionally there were also concerns of increased road traffic. I live just a few hundred metres up the street from the site and since Tesco and Lidl set up shop there has been a major increase in traffic. A common sight is to see a car emerge from Lidl, drive down the road and turn into Tesco. One could imagine the chaos of a car trying to cross the road into Lidl or Tesco or vice versa.
Naturally such a large development such as the one proposed would have its proponents and opponents but as the development has been shelved it becomes a relatively moot point. However the cancellation of the project has now left one very big question in its wake. That is what to do with the derelict site?
Undoubtedly it is an eyesore and something needs to be done about it. Unfortunately as to what can be done with it is open to debate as there would be certainly zoning issues.
I think this is an utter disgrace. Do people not realise yet that competiton is good for busisness. The more a town has to offer the more people will want to visit.If you are attrated to a town with a center like the one proposed then you are likely to go further, and probably purchase items in other shops and maybe stop for a bit of lunch. This would then give a much needed boost to our dwinling economy and in turn create jobs.People please please wake up. WE NEED JOBS- WE NEED COMPETTION
Its sad to see a developement like this lost in the town when work is so scarce, for reasons like increased road traffic when traffic is allways at a crawl until you get past the end of cork hill.
Stopping Dunnes stores from buliding must send out a message to other developers in the country not to go near Youghal but to go to Dungarvan or Middleton wher jobs are wellcomed and hunting Dunnes from the town will only see Youghal people travel to Dungarvan as they do every week of the year as i am sure everyone will agree, well enough said after all it is Youghal we are talking about so i am not suprised
To have another supermarket owner objecting obviosly due to the adverse affect another supermarket would have on his turnover is a disgrace,both lidl and tesco are just across the road and two small convenience shops,crowleys and pad mccarthys close by and none of them objected because as was said in the comments above COMPETITION IS GOOD,people shop in all stores now and a lot of people head to midleton weekly as we don’t have an aldi here,these people objecting whether its loss in revenue,too close to the site, or someone who won’t give up on the idea that there is no town without a town centre,wake up,we are in a recession,look at midleton,dungarvan 15 mins drive either side of us ,is aldi,lidl,tesco,dunnes in the town centres,NO NO NO ,i would ask anyone who shops in super valu in the next days to ask ken brookes is he happy to see another 100 or so jobs lost to the town,or vote with your feet and support the smaller retailers or the other two supermarkets,two more of the objectors are prominent members of the fine gael party ,ask the prospective councillors ,B MURRAY,M BEECHER,R SWEETNAM do they support the actions of there party members and vote with your feet on the 5th june,youghal would have everything the other towns have years ago but for the objections of a number of people,again the town being ruled by a number of people who have no idea what the real world has to put up with.
This is certainly a blow. But not unexpected! From an employment point of view we could have done with another employer bringing must needed jobs. Having Dunnes Stores opening would have sent out a message that Youghal can attract new businesses even during this time of recession. However Robert makes a valid point that Dunnes were never actually ‘guaranteed’ as tenants. That being said, its a big disappointment.
Especially in these times of recession, it’s a disgrace that Dunnes hasn’t been given the go-ahead. It would be of great economic benefit to the town.
Local retailers are very selfish that they don’t wanna see good things happening for this town – only concentrating on keeping their own businesses going.
And there are certain businesses that need to step back and take a look at their shop fronts and realise the place needs to look more inviting to potential customers.
And what’s even worse – that a certain supermarket owner objected, very hypocritical if you ask me, seen as he moved his business from the south side of town, which clearly led to the decline in business at that end of town.
And judging by someone else’s comment, it’s not looking too good for Fine Gael on June the 5th either is it??
Change is needed big time in this town!!!
The potential new town councillors should take a leaf out of Obama’s book!
Can we bring change to this town??? YES WE CAN!!!
there are pros and cons with this dunnes proposal for sure, its easy to see both sides of the argument are valid in their own right..but i feel right now, Youghal needs more urgently, more active incentives to protect and boost the local businesses along the main street.
It’s good to see and read everyones thoughts on this and I cannot stress enough how important it is that everyone voices their opinion on this.
However I will give my opinion (not my political party’s) on your comments as they appear:
Tara – yes I agree with you whole heartedly that competition is good. I agree with you even more that this town needs jobs. However as I stated already, Dunnes Stores were never confirmed as a tenant. For all we know the development itself could be a great big three story white elephant only partially occupied or not occupied at all. All the more likely given the state the country is in.
Barry – Again I have to agree with you, yes it is a shame when work is scarce to see something like this rejected. But it is important to read and understand the reasons for its rejection to begin with. All to often developments have been given the green light much to the detriment of what surrounds them. The Strand Palace being a prime example.
Get youghal jobs – You mention Crowleys and McCarthy’s not objecting? In fact they did, albeit not directly. RGDATA who were one of the objectors represent the Independent Grocery Retail sector in Ireland. Check out their website at http://www.rgdata.ie
As to whether Ken Brooks being happy to see 100 or so jobs lost then I can’t answer. You have to ask him.
As for the other objectors, It is incidental that two of the objectors happen to be members of Fine Gael. They happen to live right along side the proposed development. How would you react if someone told you that a two story car park would be built behind you that would tower over your house? Regardless of their political affiliation they had every right to lodge an objection especially to one that they obvioulsy felt would encroach on their privacy.
Donie – Thanks!
Freda – would you really like to see local retailers go out of business? Would you rather faceless multi-nationals oust them just by their sheer buying power alone? Would you like to see downtown Youghal dead, empty from the post office to the clock gate? I do understand what you are saying but I think it is just as important if not more so in some cases to encourage local business start-ups.
I want to see this town develop to its full potential. By that I mean the whole town. I would love for the people living in Youghal and those visiting Youghal to have the opportunity to spend hours walking the streets, browsing through the local shops and availaing of all the town has to offer. But the more the town swings out towards the North Road the less a reality this will be.
We will be left with a main street that will be deviod of businesses other than the banks, bookmakers and the post office.
back again, i cant get this out of my mind, i like warrens idea of a music venue, look at what debarras does for clonakity!! we could go even further..
but at the end of the day the things that make youghal unique arent being protected, youghal has been struggeling to breathe for too long because of the imbalance of much money and too little money! sigh…the romance of the town is waning.. bring back the big wheel, the busking festival and the shops that sell buckets and spades, and youghal souvineers, brreathe some life into our struggling cafes, and re-instill some pride into our heritage and tourism, (drive out the masons haha!!!) give us a marina..and a train station and track to cork…sooorrrrted!
Claire, I think you have hit the nail on the there.
I agree with Claire there about the Busking Festival – those were the days! The town used to be buzzing! And even those festivals that were on for the months on June and July brought life to the town.
Even though I’m all for Dunnes, it has to be said that’s not the only thing needed to revive this town.
As Claire mentioned – a marina, the train station to be re-opened.
And all Merricks needs is a lick of paint to make the place look more inviting.
However…was there talks there recently of Heatons taking over there? Now that really would bring more business to that end of town!
I have to agree with Robert,we have the location, we have the talent right here in Youghal,it wouldnt take much to boost the place,this year is supposed to be the 800 anniversery since Youghal got its charter from the Queen,
Theres a reason to party right straight away !
if merricks goes it will be the final straw, ill chain myself to the gates if i have to, merricks was a childhood for many, it has so much meaning to the town..there are plenty of other spaces for heatons!! it better just be rumour!!
but the crumbling paintwork isnt just with merricks, its just more proof of the apathy that makes businesses lose the will to fight, and forget their pride. morale has been low too long..and its contagious. we need to get some colour and pride back into the drained and grey picture (up the punx)
(i miss angela all the time…my grandmother always got her bit and pieces in there)
Well said Tom: “I cannot convey the level of anger I feel about this. Yet again the greedy traders and self interested parasites have put their own interests before those of the town and its people by treating us with utter contempt.”
I am deeply saddened that the proposed site for Dunne Stores has been rejected. The fact that the Chamber of Commerce has opposed it beggars belief! The obvious “spin-off” effect that Dunne Stores would have created on the town could only have been a benefit for the traders on the main street. Besides this, what about the jobs that this would have created? Apart from the finished product that would have created well over 100 jobs, badly needed construction jobs in the development of the site would have also been very welcomed.
Instead of the rural population of east cork/west waterford having to travel elsewhere, Youghal could have attracted them. Thus, in the coming years, could have grown substantially along the lines of Midleton and Dungarvan.
The proposal was nonsense in the first place. Dunnes Stores were at no time involved, and we would have had more over provision of un-needed retail space. Look at the Main st, it’s getting a bit ghost-town looking. And what jobs are have been lost? How many Youghal people actually work in the super markets we have already? What Youghal needs is proper tourism development, focused on the bay, estuary and Blackwater. Not more places for people to buy cheap groceries with their dole money. I’m delighted the planning system is working so well. Maith sibh an Bord.
Now that this site will not get permission for a big shopping centre, careful consideration could be given as to its future use. There is very little green space left in the town. Our present Graveyard is filling all too rapidly and very soon when land is needed for a new Graveyard it may prove difficult to get anywhere in the vicinity of the town. The result could be a future Graveyard miles outside the town. Could our Town Council plan ahead and acquire this land for a new Graveyard? In the interim until it is needed for burials, it could be developed into allotments for the townspeople.
jd kess – ”Not more places for people to buy cheap groceries with their dole money” – that’s a bit harsh, n very stereotypical! do u not think that employed people buy cheap groceries at all???
and the reason the main street is so deserted now is since the closure of pasley’s a few years ago. also due to the fact that a number of shops are over-priced.
i dont blame most of the town to travel to midleton or dungarvan, where there’s a wider variety of goods and much better value.
Again some of you are missing the point and Eoin I’m surprised that you are too unless you are ignoring the facts and trying to ride popular opinion?
The main facts concerning the proposed development is that Dunnes Stores were never confirmed as a tenant. A developer from Killarney was refused planning permission to build a retail outlet. Dunnes were mentioned as a possible anchor tenant no doubt to curry favour for planning permission to be granted.
Some 3 or more years ago there were wild rumours that Woodies DIY were going to build there!
As it happens it is very unlikely that Dunnes Stores would ever open a store in Youghal as it currently does not meet their criteria to establish a retail outlet.
Neither does Youghal meet the criteria for Aldi to invest for that matter.
While Dunnes Stores do not make their expansion stragegy publicly available it is widely accepted that their criteria is that a chosen town must have a catchment area of 10,000 or more and be somewhere in the region of 20 miles from their nearest store.
Likewise Aldi will rarely compete head on in the same town as an established Lidl (or vice versa) unless the population of the town was large enough to support the two.
Youghal has a catchment area of approximately 8000, Midleton approx. 16,000 and Dungarvan (which is a county town) approx 12,000.
Both Dungarvan and Midleton are about the same distance from Youghal. As far as Dunnes in Dungarvan are concerned Youghal is in their catchment area, likewise Aldi in Midleton.
It is unfortunate that this is the way most large retailers operate but there you go.
robert,you are in fact wrong again,aldi will openly compete with lidl in ireland,how else can they achieve their set target of stores,examples of lidl/aldi operating together in towns not cities are mitchelstown,clonmel,roscrea,thurles,new ross,enniscorthy,wexford,togher,ballincollig has 2 aldis,midleton,need i go on,dunnes are also operating in some of these towns which while some are the majority are not meeting the requirements you have outlined,who said this robert”If we don’t fix the jobs crisis we won’t fix the problem in our public finances” this is what this development was JOBS,whether it was dunnes or not then it was jobs,another former councillor and member of your party and relation of the objector sold out in the late 90′s to tesco he did’nt object then did he ,local politics means you support and lobby the creation of jobs in the town,if you want to be elected positivity might be the order of the day,if youghal is in dungarvans catchment area would that make it a catchment area of 20,000,or likewise midleton at 24,000,what you fail to understand is that if people travel to these centres to shop is that the other shops in those towns benefit also ,thats why our town centre is dead.
ANYONE AGREE.
“what you fail to understand is that if people travel to these centres to shop is that the other shops in those towns benefit also ,thats why our town centre is dead.”
Couldn’t agree more. The cosy cartel that operates in Youghal has driven people and their money out of town for years.
The people of Youghal decided, through their local representatives in the Town Council, to invite new development into town. Their wishes have been overridden yet again by the same old greedy vested interests.
Tom – Don’t forget that the jaded empires you mention have been providing employment in the town years before any multi-national retailer came here and still do. Whatever our opinions of them.
One of the reasons I am running in the local elections is to try to establish policies that are pro business in the town to encourage new businesses in the town and thereby providing employment. The larger businesses such as Dunnes will not come to the town as it is too small and is well served (relatively speaking) by existing supermarkets (I’m leaving aside the argument of whether we as consumers feel we are getting value for money or not here for the moment). We should be encouraging small business to establish themselves in the town.
For example typically it takes any new business two to three years to know if they will be profitable or not. Why should the town council not help them out a bit? Give them a sliding rate scale for their first few years, let them pay a quarter of the rates for their first year, half the second and so on for instance.
At least this way the council will get some rates rather than having another empty shell of a shop in the town and some employment will be provided.
If something like this could be encouraged then a dozen new small businesses employing 4 people part-time would result in 48 new jobs for instance. Much better than nothing! Keep in mind that the majority of staff in Tesco and Lidl are part time.
@get youghal jobs – You are indeed right when you say “local politics means you support and lobby the creation of jobs in the town”
Absolutely right but I think waiting and hoping for an employer to come to the town to employ a significant amount of people in the near furture is not going to happen anytime soon.
Trust me I hope I’m wrong in saying that and something does come along to prove me wrong. But that doesn’t mean that we should not be doing our utmost to encourage other types of businesses to start up in the town. Whatever their size.
And of course, just because this development has been rejected does not mean that we should not be looking for something to replace it either.
Robert Sweetman 37 1.04% 0.10 (6) Lost Deposit
thats where negativity will get you robert,be positive and you might have some chance.
”If we don’t fix the jobs crisis we won’t fix the problem in our public finances”
i’ll answer it for you robert,that was the leader of YOUR party mr Enda Kenny,policies you might need to get up to speed on before you arrive to canvass at my door,37 votes does’nt bode well on your chances apart from this last three weeks i have’nt heard your name on anything.
Robert Sweetnam – “Again some of you are missing the point and Eoin I’m surprised that you are too unless you are ignoring the facts and trying to ride popular opinion?
The main facts concerning the proposed development is that Dunnes Stores were never confirmed as a tenant. A developer from Killarney was refused planning permission to build a retail outlet. Dunnes were mentioned as a possible anchor tenant no doubt to curry favour for planning permission to be granted.”
Yes a Killarney developer was denined permission to build a retail outlet. A retail outlet that would have provided jobs, regardless of whether it was Dunnes Stores, Woodies DIY or Aldi. Who cares who the proprietor was, the point that you seem to be missing is that it would have created much needed jobs! And as for shifting the town centre north, why can’t people see it as expanding the town like our neighbours in Midleton and Dungarvan have.
As forthe remark you made about me trying to ride on popular opinion, as you pointed out on radio, i’m running for a party who are way down in the opinion polls at the moment, popularity is not something that I am looking for. Did it perhaps occur to you that I am currently deeply concerned about the direction this town in heading (and I don’t mean towards tesco and lidl).
@getyoughaljobs – you don’t need to worry, I’m well aware of my parties policies.
However I don’t know what point you are trying to get across by bringing up the results of the last local elections. Nonetheless at least I tried and I am running again because I want to see this town grow and reach its full potential. I want the people of Youghal to have a vibrant community in which to live and work. I want to actually achieve something for the town and its people instead of hiding behind a pseduonym and blowing hot air.
If that means pointing out some home truths then so be it. We are all aware that unemployment is over 11% and rising but you might not be aware that 97% of companies in Ireland are small and medium enterprises and they employ over 800,000 people. As mentioned in Fine Gael’s election manifesto:
“Most towns and villages in Ireland are almost totally reliant on the survival of these businesses to provide local employment. Fine Gael will place the survival of these businesses at the heart of Government and Local Government policy.”
Like I said earlier we should be encouraging small business to establish themselves in the town. We should be encouraging the ones that are already here to grow and help them to survive if needs be.
I am positive about the future of the town, I’m positive that with careful planning we may finally attract those types of businesses that will bring in significant employment. However until the national economy improves, protecting our existing businesses should be a priority, at the very least to protect the jobs that are in the town.
It’s interesting that you are one of only two people commenting here who finds it necessary to hide behind a pseudonym so I presume if I call to your door canvassing then you will make yourself known to me? as for not hearing my name on anything you are hearing it here now at least!
Eoin, everyone is concerned about the direction this town is heading and the comments here certainly prove that.
From my very first comment here I regretted the fact that this was another employment blow to the town. Like you said it wouldn’t matter who moved in once they provided some much needed employment. But it would be have been ideal if the development itself was suitable for the location but it wasn’t and that is why Bord Pleanala rejected it.
If you read the Bord Pleanala document above you will have read their concerns about the size of the development itself. You don’t need to read the entire document, just the very last page.
Elsewhere in the document (P14, 7.3) is stated that the rate of closure of shops in the Youghal town centre has accelerated since Tesco and Lidl opened. This is a serious concern in itself.
In Midleton businesses in the town centre there have closed since the new shopping centre there was built. In Dungarvan this is not so much an issue as their new shopping centre is in the middle of the town to begin with.
I have to reiterate my own concerns about the development again. I believed that it was too big. Not too big for the town but certainly too big for its proposed location.
Again I will reiterate that I am not against competition in the town. Anything that will reduce costs for consumers is only a good thing.
Since the development has been shelved we need to find a suitable business to move in there and this should be a priority.
As there seem to be a good few people now following this thread I think it would be interesting to hear what you all think would be suitable for that site? What size would you all consider to be acceptable is there any particular type of business you would like there. Already mentioned were Dunnes, Woodies and Aldi. But I think is is worthwhile asking you all your opinions.
Robert you are still missing the point. Youghal is not run by the elected representatives as voted by the people but by a cartel of business and vested interests whose mouthpiece is the Chamber of Commerce.
Some of these people have spent most of my lifetime, and probably longer, stifling competition and objecting to any retail development which might threaten their vested interests.
The same people have objected time and time again to retail develoment in Youghal and have always won, while the people of Youghal lose out to their continued greed and stifling of competition in the retail sector. The fact that they already provide jobs is neither here nor there. They have continued to stifle competition in the retail sector thereby preventing job creation and local growth.
Until this situation is resolved and we have a Chamber of Commerce instead of a cartel there will NEVER be new retail development in the town, because the usual vested interests WILL ALWAYS object and win.
As regards local elections I see little point in voting this year. Last time round there were 23 candidates for 9 seats. 11 candidates for the same 9 seats is not a choice, merely another cosy cartel, ensuring most of the existing councillors require very few votes to be re-elected. In fact it is possible that all 9 councillors could be elected without reaching the required quota. This is not democracy.
I’m led to believe that in the 1960s or thereabouts a farmer’s mart was mooted for Youghal. Oblivious to the benefits of widening the catchment area for local business, and creating a precedent of bringing our rural neighbours into the town on a weekly basis, the local bigwigs at the time opted against it, as they didn’t want tractors and cow ess aitch eye tee on the streets.
Plus ca change etc.
Youghal has been marked by the apathy of its citizens, and by the insular and narrow minded behaviour of its business community over many years, not least in the chamber of Youghal Town Council. We are very fond of telling ourselves that we can best Kinsale in terms of history and all the rest of it. One time maybe, but they are where they are due to farsighted development, and a buy in from all members of the community. And we are where we are.
The elephant in the room here is that the town council meetings has become little more than a talking shop, a little like this comment thread in fact. The town stinks to high heaven for the last three years (two years of which it took for people to literally follow their noses to the source), due to stagnating waste at the landfill, the hot gases rising from which is rivalled by that being created at The Mall.
Until such time as local government is given more powers and more control over budgetary and planning matters then we are on a hiding to nothing.
We cannot lay all the blame at the door of local government or commercial entities though. There seem to be two diverse groupings in this town, those who do, and those who complain (yeah, I get the irony). Look at all the things we as a town get right, the tidy towns committee, the proactive and beneficial works in our schools, the musical following within the town (and the work of the guys in Claycastle), the musical societies, chatterbox etc., to name but a few.
The desire to push things along is obviously there. The trick is to harness that energy and impart it to others.
Moaning at the likes of Ken Brookes, or amongst ourselves isn’t the answer. I’m as angry as anyone that this plan has fallen flat and put yet another derelict site in the town on the long finger, but blaming or boycotting existing businesses in the town is not the solution. Sadly this plan was never going to be viable in the current climate, and to say otherwise is only codding ourselves. Midleton and Dungarvan are not immune to the recession either, and both have seen closures of late. Unfortunately because we in Youghal sat on our hands, they are at least stepping back one or two rungs from higher up on the ladder.
We have many things that they don’t though. One of the largest beaches in Europe, a rich and varied history, and our harbour. Not many towns can claim a walled beach within yards of the main street. We need to play to our strengths (which don’t involve throwing up section 23 crapboxes everywhere any more), and get ourselves that marina, more events like the powerboats, maybe a festival here and there that we as a community won’t scoff at, but actually support. I’m no fan of the way our commercial community has acquitted itself over the years, but rather than leaving things to them (the Christmas lights being one example-without one of the traders mentioned here, there wouldn’t be any), we should be helping out ourselves in any way we can. Being a community, in essence.
look at the town,it has nothing to offer us as locals or anything to offer the tourist,yes we have many areas of historic interest,but like the whole town we under utilise them even in the busy months of the year,in my opinion anything that was ever any good it slipped away because it did’nt get the financial backing of the towns publicans and traders,ie,potato festival,busking festival,yearly cycle races,pipe band championships,they argued where the festival took place,ie ,if it took place at dolphin square then the publicans at the other end of town would’nt support it,this is the bul”"”it that this town puts up with,everyone looks after themselves and not working for the betterment of the town.
A once a month moan at the council meeting to get there name in the youghal news is not good enough,it needs to be raised at all levels and go out and get it sorted,these 9 people supposedly represent our town,what do we get for the votes.unemployment,loss of blue flags,no festivals,no competition,high rents in town centre,unkempt residential estates,thats just not good enough
Tom, I think in your last comment you made some very good points that I will freely admit to having never considered. Thank you for that.
Ryan – Excellent points as well. Interestingly both the Green Party and Fine Gael have proposals to give local authorities more power and less reliant on central government. As to how close to reality this will be is unknown at the moment but the framework is there and from reading many of the thoughts expressed here I would be hopeful that these reforms come sooner rather than later.
get youghal jobs – for once in this discussion I cannot attempt a debate to your last comment left at 6:27 because there is nothing to debate as you are completely correct of course. I can only say like I said to Ryan already that I hope the proposed local authority reforms, either the Greens or Fine Gael’s can become a reality sooner rather than later.
Obviously I am not too familiar with the Green Parties proposals, all I know about it is what I have read in the media. But I am familiar with Fine Gaels policy on local authority reform, the three main principles of which are:
• Fixing the democratic deficit at local level by removing the centralised top down approach to delivery and responsibility of local services.
• Using the strengths of local communities to create jobs.
• The need to acknowledge past corruption and to move into a new era of Local Government where it can become relevant to the every day lives of the citizen.
As Fine Gael are not in Government this remains a party policy, but it is one in which has helped reinforce my belief that should there be a general election soon; and Fine Gael and Labour find themselves in power, this policy can become a reality in the not too distant future.
Perhaps then we can begin to address some of issues that a lot of you have brought up.
I’m not sure about YoughalOnline’s policy on posting links in comments but if it is okay and anybody is interested in reading it I will submit a link to Fine Gael’s local authority reform in a later comment.
Robert Sweetnam – ”Like I said earlier we should be encouraging small business to establish themselves in the town”.
Regardless of whether there’ll be more small businesses set up in the town, people are STILL gonna travel to Midleton, Dungarvan, Cork etc, where there’s cheaper varieties of goods available. Simply because the small businesses are gonna be overpriced.
And I also agree with this comment by ‘getyoughaljobs’ – “what you fail to understand is that if people travel to these centres to shop is that the other shops in those towns benefit also ,thats why our town centre is dead.”
It would be a great thing for this town to see a shopping centre established, because people will travel further down the town to the other shops.
I also agree with this –
”anything that was ever any good it slipped away because it did’nt get the financial backing of the towns publicans and traders,ie,potato festival,busking festival,yearly cycle races,pipe band championships,they argued where the festival took place,ie ,if it took place at dolphin square then the publicans at the other end of town would’nt support it,this is the bul”””it that this town puts up with,everyone looks after themselves and not working for the betterment of the town”
In my opinion, the traders and publicans on the main street deserve to be where they are today, because they never regenerated money back into the town for the likes of the busking festival etc…they all turn into green-eyed monsters when the profit is not going in their front door. That is another reason why our town is so dead today and why people aren’t supporting these selfish local traders.
What goes around comes around!
greetings,
glad I am to see such an interesting debate – let’s have it in the open, post election, may the new council host a series of “town hall meetings”, to discuss issues relevant to local development.
As for the issue of the proposed development – I see that only 2 parties submitted observations to An Bord Pleanala – “the price of democracy is eternal vigilence” – and those who condemn the decision might reflect on why they didn’t write to An Bord Pleanala to support the Galvin proposal.
In its decision, ABP state: “the proposed development would equate to an approximate doubling of the exisiting retail space in the town . . . it would adversely affect the vitality and viability of the old town centre”.
ABP also considered that there was inadequate parking provided for in the proposal and also that it would “adversely affect the character and views of the nearby Protected Structures”.
My interpretation of the decision is that these are sound and viable reasons for rejecting the particular proposal.
I was in Midleton last week, the distillery lane retail complex remains a deserted white elephant memorial to the follies of the Bertie Bubble – an expensive empty shell, home to only the 1 shop. Perhaps ABP have spared Youghal that outcome, and also saved the developer serious amounts of construction money.
Retail business is very competitive now – spend money in local shops says I, support local businesses, even if you don’t like the business people who run them. The more money that stays in the local economy the better – Tesco profits go the transnational shareholders – a higher percentage of local business profits get recirculated locally.
Of course Mr Brookes is going to protect his business from competition. Of course the Town Council, who need to increase income, wanted the development levies and knew, sure as the tide will return, that traders or locals would refer the matter to ABP, as is their right and entitlement.
I support Kay and Robert’s call for a discussion on how the site may be used now. The landowner and the Council must be included, as none of us want the site to slide into further deriliction. I also support Claire’s observations about the busking festival, the need for a class gig/event venue, the marina and the railway. Youghal is now a designated “Family Fun” holiday hub, the Farmer’s Market is set to re-open, more Irish people will holiday at home this summer and some will come back to Youghal – there are positive prospects for this town.
I look forward to lobbying the new town councillors to host a series of “Town Hall Meetings” to allow the people of the town to speak their vision about how Youghal will develop, how we can harness the talent and sweat of the town, how we can work together for the good of all . . .
“I am deeply saddened that the proposed site for Dunne Stores has been rejected. The fact that the Chamber of Commerce has opposed it beggars belief!”
My apologies for the comment posted previously. It was actually RG Data, not the chamber of commerce as I stated. My apologies to all involved in the Chamber. I shall check twice, cut once in future.
What an interesting debate…….Firstly id like to say Robert i think you are talking rubbish,you are on about it wasnt a suitable location its a pity they dont think of that when they are nearly building houses up on our backs….i have to agree with freda about ken brookes moving location……i wouldnt blame people for not visiting youghal,what is there to do here absolutley nothing,there is nearly more pubs than shops at this stage…the only shops i go into is tesco and lidl i dont go near the other end of the town as its an embarresment to youghal…..midleton and dungarven had no problem getting shopping malls but youghal did…….robert i hope you will get as many votes you are looking for but count me out….
Any one listen to Pat O’ Reilly’ s show on CRY today? Ned O Keeffe TD, FF MEP candidate for Ireland South is opposed to the development of out of town shopping complexes as it he feels it is more important to keep trade in town centers. Anyone know when Pats show is repeated?
Donie,
I heard the interview with Ned O’Keeffe. I found his ambivalence to water quality very disappointing. But in fairness to Ned, a few weeks back he was on the front page of the Echo, interviewed by Padriag Hoare saying Fianna Fail hadn’t had a decent leader since CJ Haughey . . .
It was interesting to hear FF’s Sammy Revins on Pat’s show encouraging people to vote for Youghal candidates Sandra, Mary and Barbara in the County Council election.
Try Tuesday at 4 for the repeat of Pat’s show, shouldn’t you be on it next week??
http://www.youghalradio.com/schedule.php
Youghal has ample retail space out of town at Foxhole, beyond the landfill and sludge plant. It doesn’t appear to me that business is booming there.
Support local business, the more that’s spent on multinationals, the less profit gets re-circulated locally.
Ned O’Keeffe is a pothole filling journalistic butt grabbing (yes, Edward, most of us remember Una Claffey) vote, erm, grabber.
Nothing more.
He is beloved of the agricultural community of north cork, because, like Mulvihill down in Cobh (“elect a TD for Cobh”, yet poster every interchange in East Cork), he is provincial and self serving. He raises Dail questions on a daily basis as to why Paddy Joe Murphy in Shanballymore didn’t get his milk cheque this month, buys rounds for everyone in the Glocca Maura and does bugger all else.
Like many TDs, he fails to recognise the actual role he is supposed to be filling. It is the task of local government to deal with local issues, or at least it should be. We can’t deny that concerns do get raised, when people make an issue of them. The problem is that nothing gets done. The rols of a teachta dala is to debate and enact law and policy, not to campaign on behalf of someone who wants a grant to build a shed in Kildorrery.
And yet he, and Micky Ahern share the top rank between them. Despite neither having lifted a pudgy digit for Youghal since ’82. In fact Ahern has been instrumental in diverting industry to IDA Carrigtohill in many instances, and yet people will still indulge in civil war politics and cast a vote for the double effers.
Sammy is a man with the interests of the town in his heart, as is Mary. They are both people I know well and think a great deal of, as they have both achieved good things, both for themselves and for the council. That said, I cannot bring myself to support their party on this occasion, and I may well say the same about FG in time to come, but not for now. Stanton seems to show abeyance to parish pump politics, to a degree at least. I have not supported FF since 97 and cannot see myself doing so again.
Orla is right in terms of questioning planning policy. This development was indeed refused IMO due to pressure, but the overriding question is, was it wrong to refuse it? Sadly, I don’t think so. Throwing up a few thousand feet of retail space (bear in mind, gentle readers, that it is more than the total space utilised in the whole town at present, combined), is no guarantee that people will rush in to fill the void. Even the Rivergate Mall struggles to maintain occupancy. Not to mind three or four retail developments in Midleton and another half dozen or more in Carrigtohill that are the same way.
We made many mistakes in planning over the years (yes, with houses up our backs, but more so with sh*tbox apartments which were bought up by legal firms in Dublin, and investment firms that were habitual donators to the FF party), but we shouldn’t make any more of them, not that we can afford to now anyway.
Thanks for that Eanna,
Next wednesday is the county council debate.
I’ll be watching the champions league!
No offence Pat! Timing is everything!
We Should be on the repeat of last Wednesdays show!
Any time, without exception, if Pat rings me to go on , I’m there.
Pat knows that!
It wasnt ambivalence on NoF’s behalf it was lack of knowledge. What do you expect? Has he even canvassed Youghal? Why should he? He doesnt canvass here for Dail elections!
I heard Toireasa Ferris on the same show today, she knew more about what was happening on the ground in Youghal then Ned will ever know! In fairness a small bit of local input works wonders! does wonders!!!
my opinion…”this town is gone to the dogs”!this town needs change!when you walk up the main street how many shops from the clockgate to supervalue is closed?And the ones that are open then you couldnt buy anything in them there so expensive!i think its not that people want to shop out of town its they have to..they have no other choice!for example….i want to get socks for my child ..if tesco havnt them where will i get them?? Look at midleton they have..Lidl..Tesco..Walshs sports..Arcade..Heatons..a new Cinema…another reason people go out of town…and take dungarvan..plenty of choice shopping wise…before you even go to the shopping centre theres a large sports shop..they have dunnes…new cinema..plenty of little shops in the shopping centre..shaws…sure it only takes 20 mins to drive down 30 mins to head to midleton…on a saturday in youghal you could spend anything from 20 to 40 mins looking trying to get from sheehans garage to cork hill and a parking space on a fri or sat out of the question…and as far as i know midleton offers free parking! this place really needs to wake up!!
“This development was indeed refused IMO due to pressure, but the overriding question is, was it wrong to refuse it?”
Ryan, there is something inherently wrong with a town when its citizens are denied basic, affordable shopping and have to travel to other towns.
The shops on the main street are empty or overpriced for a reason. Its not recession, they’ve been empty or overpriced for over 10 years. We have to ask ourselves WHY? People are leaving town in droves every day to shop in Dungarvan, Midleton, Waterford and Cork. We have to ask ourselves WHY?
WHY is it cheaper to spend money on petrol or bus fares to go to other towns just to pick up a few essentials? WHO owns the properties on the main street and WHY are the rents so high? WHY are start up costs on the main street so prohibitive? WHY can people open and run successful businesses in Midleton and Dungarvan but not in Youghal? Why do people in Youghal have to pay for parking when its free in other towns?
So was it wrong to refuse it? If the start up costs were affordable for new businesses (which I suspect they would have been as nobody local would have owned the units), there was adequate parking and most importantly competition then yes it was wrong to refuse it.
I can’t stress this enough and I know I sound like a broken record but there is no competition in Youghal, it has been stifled by the objectors for decades leading to a lack of job creation and inflated prices.
Tom, excellent points, and I concur with them all.
As I said above, the culture of protectionism among the traders in this town has led to a situation where instead of lowering costs to increase footfall, same are being increased in a misguided attempt to increase return.
A folly if ever there was one. We can all name traders that have been forced out due to ridiculous rental demands. I personally can rattle off three, within yards of the Clock Gate, one of which vacated leaving no grocery shop proper within over a quarter of a mile of the town centre, and two of which relocated further North to the Millenium Park area.
My point about the Indian Point development stands. Had we gotten this eight or ten years ago, the town would be in a much better position than now, as would the developer and tenants thereof. Getting finance to pursue it now, as well as holding tough for a couple of years until things pick up, particularly in an environment of falling rents and revenue everywhere would not be an easy ask, even if the planning got a green light.
That said, the culture of blind objectionism (is that a word?) in Youghal is seedy, misguided, self serving, and plain wrong. I won’t argue with you there. It has us where we are, and we need to move on now from where we find ourselves.
At my count, there are twelve candidates for nine seats on YTC (open to correction on this). Leaving party affiliations aside, there are some good people there that will be back, and one or two that will make the cut, but that I will be sorry to see resuming their seats. It is up to those who do not show blind support for the commercial sector of this town, instead looking to approaches that benefit all the townspeople that should be supported.
It doesn’t all stop when all the ballots get counted and spiked, in fact that’s when it all begins. Use these people. Email them. Stop them on the street and let your feelings be known.
And Tom, your opinions are most erudite and welcome, no comparisons with broken records are warranted
@get youghal jobs:
http://www.youghalonline.com/2008/03/26/cllr-murray-to-withdraw-co-council-reports-from-youghal-meetings/
http://www.youghalnews.ie/issues/march2008.pdf
A.N.Other- Whilst you are all bickering over the logistics and morality of the scheme does anyone else out there agree with me that the town has gone into suspended animation!!!!
Whilst they are waiting for a final word we should be using this time to be concentrating on the rejuvination of a dying town. What ever the decision in the end it is going to take YEARS for it to be built and up and running.
Yes Midleton and Dungarvan have good models but that did not happen due to the new developments it was happening anyway, the town councils nurtured their new and existing traders as well as using the develop0ers for support by writing in terms and conditions to improve the town to balance the impact.
Lets kick off with 3 simple ideas:
1.Place a cash machine at the south end of town ie in the Rivergate Mall- this would encourage more cash flow to that end of town (eg. I myself would have found this very benificial when the market was up and running)
2. Give the new small traders a break- how about some incubator retail units with start up business rates etc. we have enough units available all along the street.
3. Place strict guidelines on the appearance of empty units at present they look a disgrace.
PS the current decision is right if only for the parking issue the creation of 100 jobs=100 staff parking spaces leaving just 150 spaces for the customers what were they thinking?
can you please explain why the last comment i left on this forum last night was edited so much as i feel that other comment were not edited and nothing that i put there wasnt said already,,,
It has been unusual for a news report to generate such activity and debate on this site. Now that the dust seems to have settled (until June 5th anyway!) and having perused the comments, there are one or two details that might serve the town’s overall cause best if clarified.
1) From attending most of Youghal Town Council’s meetings over the past two years, I can testify without doubt that each and every councillor strongly supported the planning application by Galvin Developments, Killarney to develop the site in question. The vote to rezone the site for industrial use was unanimously carried. Youghal Town Council granted planning permission.
2) There were 39 submissions to the planning application. Youghal Chamber of Commerce remained neutral, deciding not to make a submission as it did not form a mandate from members.
3) It is quite correct that Dunne’s Stores were never more than an aspiration as anchor tenants. They had neither signed nor guaranteed anything. Galvin Developments, who own the site, merely indicated that they had strong hopes that Dunnes would come on board.
4) The objections to the proposal were built on reasonable argument and personal concern, which was to be expected. It has to be recognised that they were accepted by a national, objective agency. It is pointless –and undemocratic- to expect objectors not to act according within their own interests. Turkeys don’t cheer on Christmas.
5) Rejection of a planning permission is not necessarily a bad thing. In most instances it helps to ensure that more negative aspects of the proposal are eliminated. Galvin Developments are free to submit another proposal and have said that they are scrutinising the details of An Bord Pleanala’s decision with this in mind.
6) In fairness to Michael Farrell of the Rivergate Mall, he cannot be held accountable for the decline or forestalling of business in the town centre. The rent for the library, for example is €6 per sq foot. This compares with an average of €40 per sq ft for similarly located premises in Midleton and is also under 50% the average equivalent in Dungarvan. The Rivergate Mall is currently leased at full capacity, with approximately 30 staff employed. One tenant has re-located from another part of town avail of a cheaper rent.
7) In general, when times were good, most of the town’s business community invested in their premises to make them more attractive and profitable. Public houses and restaurants are the most obvious examples. This is not to say there aren’t some chancers and greed merchants involved but generally, when they had profit they attempted to improve from it.
Finally, interesting as the debate has been, I have no wish to re-open or contribute to it any further than this. If anyone disagrees with all or any of the above sentiments, that’s fine and I’m not going to try to persuade anyone any further. Life is too short and the weather is too good at the moment…I will keep Youghalonline posted if I hear of any new developments on this item.
I welcome Christy Parkers informed and balanced comments. Lets hope that this will put an end to people making rash, libelous & ill informed posts in the future!
This debate is obviously going to divide opinion in the town, but what is needed now is a unified approach from us all, to create employment and provide facilities that will enhance the lives of all the inhabitants of the town and our visitors, not just in the short term but consistantly for ours and our childrens future. YTC, the chamber, community groups & individuals will need to work together as a unit, irrespective of the current economic climate to move forward. The past is the past, if we can turn things around now, against all odds, with little or no funds from central Govt. that will prove a lot about the spirit and will of the people of Youghal!
@ Christy: Eloquently put comments, and while I mightn\’t agree with them 100% (although 90% aint bad
), they have definitely shed more light than heat on the topic. Fair play.
@ Mike: In terms of moderation here, this comment thread has certainly brought it to the fore. It hasn\’t been found wanting. As you say, self moderation has definitely helped, and is something I fully agree with, where possible. Again, fair play to you and the guys for getting it right. I\’ve moderated for years on some of the busiest sites out there, and trust me when I say that it\’s a lot easier to get wrong than it is to get right. People who complain openly should remember that this soapbox on which they stand is based on volunteerism. If a photographer was to be engaged to shoot all the events that you cover, for example, you\’d want a mortgage to be paying them.
I\’d make one suggestion though, that I\’ve seen to work well on other blogs etc., and it may only take a couple of lines. A comments policy that can be linked to from the homepage, that errant users can be pointed at if there\’s a problem? Just an idea
Before you go shouting from the rooftops that our town is dead because the planning was rejected. Why don’t you ask yourself a few questions:
Are you illegally dumping waste on our roads?
Are you dumping your waste at full recycle collection points?
Are you allowing your dog to take a dump on our footpaths, in your neighbours garden, on our beaches and green areas where our children play?
Are you allowing your dog to wander around the estates and streets?
Do you throw your cigarette ends and litter onto our streets?
Do you allow your children to roam our town day and night vandalising property and intimidating people?
Are you driving at high speed through our streets and housing estates?
Are you parking illegally in disabled parking spots?
Are you parking illegally on our footpaths blocking wheelchairs, prams and forcing pedestrians onto the road?
Do you smoke outside the pubs blocking footpaths?
Do you spit your chewing gum onto our streets?
Do you write graffiti on our walls?
Do you fail to properly maintain a commercial premises or residential property in our town.
If you’ve answered yes to any of the above then shut up about jobs and clean up your act and maybe we can have a cleaner town that’s a pleasure to live in! Youghal is seen as a dump by people outside of Youghal. It’s a rough and filthy place to live.
Do you show courtesy to your fellow youghal citizens and look after and promote our town as much as you can?
If the answer is yes than we’ll change Youghal. Not the councillors and certainly not the business people.